Two Pints Later: Stanley Grenz

Showing posts with label Stanley Grenz. Show all posts

Wednesday, 8 June 2011

Chapter 3: Hell

Having addressed heaven (Chapter 2: Here is the New There) the next chapter in Rob Bell’s Love Wins moves to a discussion of hell. Rob’s main idea is that hell is a reality that can be experienced, here and now on earth, as a result of our own or others poor choices, mistakes, and ultimately sinful and selfish nature. It is a concrete reality and result of choices made here and now which are experienced here and now. Rob does make clear that there is hell now and also hell later, and that Jesus encourages us to take both seriously.

There are individual hells,
and communal, society-wide hells,
and Jesus teaches us to take both seriously.

There is hell now,
and there is hell later,
and Jesus teaches us to take both seriously.

Rob highlights that fact that some people mainly concerned with hell on earth and dealing with that, while others are more concerned with hell after we die and dealing with that. It’s and/both. This is a great challenge and recognises the expansive nature of the Good News of the Gospel which addresses both. A challenge that deserves considerable and ongoing Christian reflection and which I believe cannot help but result in: a Christian compulsion to genuinely involve one’s life in God’s mission of reconciliation and restoration in the world in a variety of creative and meaningful ways.

Rob also correctly highlights the scarcity of scriptures and references to hell that we find in the bible and the reality that correctly understanding these passages is challenging. I think he rightly points to the reality that our understanding of hell is likely based more on folk theology rather than sound exegesis, a reality also evident in chapter 2 in regards to our understanding of heaven.

The major weakness in this chapter would be that Rob, in pointing out the scarcity of passages about hell in the bible and the challenge of understanding the passages that do exist, doesn’t really do a very good job in walking us through these passages either.

He explains Gehenna to be a town garbage heap, a popular idea held by many scholars for a long time. It seems more accurate however to be a place where children were sacrificed to false God’s. In saying that, this alteration doesn’t really change the way Rob understands the text.

The exegesis of the rich man and Lazarus is creative and more idiosyncratic than anything else. You would be hard pressed to find any commentaries that would explain the text in the way Rob explains it. It is more and artistic rereading which can offer insights but is limited in its ability to unpack the text. Rob’s conclusions in regards to Sodom and Gomorrah and lessons for us here require some big leaps which I don’t think are tenable.

So overall, considering the main questions people have in regards to hell are to do with hell after death and the concept of eternal conscious torment, Rob doesn’t really do a very good job in answering them.

While I would affirm that Rob Bell does believe in hell after death for some people, he is vague and unclear in regards to what he actually sees this looking like.

Why?

Maybe because he is unclear in what he thinks?

Maybe because this chapter isn’t penned as well as he thought it was?

Maybe because he wants to highlight that the issue isn’t as straightforward and clear as some people might think?

Maybe because he wants Love Wins to be a book that starts conversations rather than finishes the conversation?

Maybe because he wants people to wrestle with the questions for themselves?

I don’t know.

Personally I’m not sure the issue of hell is as clear cut as some people. I do however appreciate Stanley Grenz’s Theology for the Community of God and his biblical insight in regard to the issue of hell and absolutely affirm it as a reality beyond the grave. For me there is some mystery though.

Some things are crystal clear however, the Mystery has been revealed ... reconciliation to God, grace, forgiveness, the gift of eternal life (now and later) is possible through Jesus Christ and his life, death upon the cross, and resurrection. Jesus made a way where there didn’t seem to be a way. Grace is offered to those who would respond in faith and repentance!

For those that would be interested the following conversation at Scot McKnight’s blog Jesus Creed is well worth reading and reflecting on.

Background...

1. Rob Bell released a provocative video trailer for his soon to be released book Love Wins.

2. Certain voices in certain spheres of Christendom (voices famous in some spheres and infamous in others) rebuked and denounced everything Rob said in his trailer and was probably going to say in his ‘as yet unreleased book’.

3. Love Wins; a Book about Heaven and Hell and the Fate of Every Person who has Ever Lived was released.

4. Some loved it. Some hated it. It sold lots of copies. People blogged and twittered.

5. Frances Chan releases provocative video trailer for his soon to be released book Erasing Hell; What God Said about Eternity, and the Things we Made Up, a response to Rob Bells book.

And now what is worth looking at... and it is a good and provocative discussion, including the post comments and ongoing discussions in comments sections as well...

6. Jeff Cook responds to Francis Chan’s clip, 25thMay 2011

7. Mark Galli responds to Jeff Cook, 26thMay 2011

8. Jeff Cook responds to Mark Galli, 1stJune 2011

9. Mark Galli responds to Jeff Cook, 3rdJune 2011

Lots of food for thought, prayerful consideration and engaging discussion.

Sunday, 5 June 2011

Love Wins: Chapter Two

Chapter 2: Here is the New There

Rob’s main point in this chapter is to do with heaven. Basically eternity won’t be spent in a giant city with mansions and golden streets that exists somewhere out there somewhere in a galaxy far far away. Rather eternity will be spent on a restored earth, the new creation, in the New Jerusalem where heaven and earth are one. This is where we will enjoy eternal life. Rob points out that eternal life is also a type of life, a type of living, and that this sort of life can be experienced and tasted here on earth. He correctly points out that this will only ever be tasted in part until Jesus returns and indeed restores all things. He concludes by saying...

There’s heaven now, somewhere else.
There’s heaven here, sometime else.
And then there’s Jesus’ invitation to heaven
here
and
now,
in this moment,
in this place.

Essentially I think he’s on the money here though a little clarity could be offered.

There’s heaven now, somewhere else = Non material part of the universe where God’s will reigns.

There’s heaven here, sometime else = When Jesus returns and makes all things new, the new heaven and earth (read renewed heaven and earth). Eternity will be spent here, heaven and earth will be one, and the dwelling place of God will be with humanity.

There is heaven here and now = Better stated this is eternal life (technically not heaven). Eternal life or ‘eternity type of life and living’ that can be tasted in part now but will one day be experienced in full.

I know for some who have grown up understanding heaven to be a large golden city of mansions, paradise somewhere out there somewhere that exits now, this chapter might cause you to pause. Personally I think if you do a bit of exploring you’ll discover that Rob is pretty much on the money.

Some further reading that has helped me understand these issues...

The Gospel of the Kingdom – George E Ladd
Surprised by Hope – Tom Wright
Theology for the Community of God – Stanley Grenz

On page 46, Rob makes the comments...

Our eschatology shapes our ethics.
Eschatology is about last things.
Ethics are about how you live.

What you believe about the future shapes, informs, and determines how you live now.

This is a great challenge that needs serious consideration...

Our Blog

Whether it’s over a pint of beer, an espresso coffee, or an icy cold bottle of New Zealand’s own Lemon & Paeroa, there is something invigorating about a meaningful conversation. Finding someone with whom your ideas and musings resonate is encouraging and reassuring, it inspires you to walk on. Finding someone with a different perspective causes you to pause, to reconsider, to take stock, to refine your thinking. Both can be healthy. Both can get you into trouble. Two Pints Later is the online continuation of a variety of conversations between some strangers who have become friends. It is a collaborative attempt to continue discussions that started in living rooms, or at BBQ’s, or after church, or at the pub, or in cafes, or in classrooms around New Zealand and Australia. We share a common and unwavering commitment to Jesus and mostly our conversations are to do with what it might mean to follow Jesus in our 21st Century, postmodern, postChristian context. Sometimes they’re not. As much as our stories are similar they are different. We each write from our own perspective and the opinions and ideas we present are our own and not necessarily those of our fellow collaborators or organisations we might work for. Individual bios can be found below. Enjoy the conversation and feel free to join in.

Collaborators

Michael Frost - is an early 30’s ginger haired man, passionate about cricket, music, NRL, whiskey (as long as it’s single malt) and theology... and of course, most of all, passionate about the good Lord. Michael is also madly in love with his wife Hannah. He lectures a bit, studies a bit, and does a bit of thinking along the way. Michael believes faith should be genuine in all of its complexities... "The true reality of faith is explored in the midst of our fears, doubts, hopes, beliefs, experiences, sufferings and relationships. Hopefully in the midst of it all, we discover Christ - we discover death and resurrection – and that changes everything!"

Joseph McAuley - is a husband and a father, an M.Div student, an INTJ, and an urban gardener. He is the lead pastor of St Luke's in Mount Maunganui, NZ. He drives a 1967 HR Holden Wagon and is building Artesania Latina’s HMS Endeavour. Joseph is interested in spiritual disciplines, Genesis, sustainability and leadership. He loves the fact that... "Even in the midst of the greyscale reality of a sin ravaged world, in Jesus Christ life can still be lived in vibrant colour. Beauty, passion, laughter, love, grace and forgiveness can be discovered."

Anna Exelby - is married to Nathan - who she is grateful to for consistently widening her worldview (those people who say ‘opposites attract’ are correct). She teaches English at the high school down the road and her students also do their fair share of broadening her outlook. When not trying to enthuse the teenage brain about literature she enjoys coffee and conversation with friends, pottering in her vege garden, getting to the top of the Mount, reading and walking Kingi - their German Shepherd. She struggles to understand how to best be a part of fighting injustice and wants to learn more about sustainability. Anna is working towards a MACS, which she credits with reviving her faith – turns out she needed to turn her brain on and explore some questions – and realise that God was cool with that.

Shane Clifton - is married to Elly and has the privilege and challenge of raising three teenage boys. He is a raving feminist and hopes this blog will include more female contributors (yes, will soon have a couple on board). Shane teaches theology at Alphacrucis college and is the author of Pentecostal Churches in Transition and, in collaboration with new Neil Ormerod, Globalisation in the Mission of the Church. Following a serious accident on 7 October 2010 he is learning to live as a quadriplegic.

Heidi Nagels - is a big fan of good food, great friends and the kind of laughing that makes your sides hurt. She is self-employed accountant, a pastor at St Luke’s in Mount Maunganui and on the homeward straight of her MACS. She plays weekly in a volleyball team called ‘Puddingface’ (with her boyfriend Simon) and would love to master the speedy overhead serve this season. Heidi hopes to continue to learn to be a disciple and a follower of the way and takes courage knowing “’Course Aslan (Jesus) isn’t safe. But he’s good” (Mr Beaver, Narnia)

Braden Matson - is...

Shane Meyer - is the proud owner disproportionately long arms, which on occasion attract the jeers of small children. He lives with his wife Rachel (who he has really grown fond of over the years) in Melbourne, and works in speciality coffee where he has recently received the distinguished ‘Least Indie Barista’ award due to his lack of fringe and / or pirate themed tattoos. When not swimming in a sea of extremely good coffee he attempts to get as much reading done as possible before resuming study and having his life taken over again. He also works continually in an attempt to prevent the immanent psychological implosion of his indoor football team ‘The Pony Express’. He is occasionally serious and loves discussion around how to live every part of our lives as a community of redemption and hope.

Sean du Toit - Sean, along with his wife, Sue, [who he’s had a crush on since he was sixteen], is a follower of Jesus trying to make sense of this world. This quest to be faithful to Jesus has led him into the byways and alleys of theology, history, philosophy and now a community called, “Common Ground.” Part of this quest involves teaching the New Testament, pursuing his own post-grad research and trying to connect with his friends, as often as possible. Sean has unusual sleeping habits, a love for reading documents and inscriptions from the first century, a wise mother, a creative sister and two kick-butt nephews who create within him a desire to one day have his own children.

Sam Bloore - doubts whether many people will have made it this far down a list of bio’s. If you have, he predicts you are organized and efficient. Patient and conscientious. An i-dotter. A t-crosser. Sam is none of these…and so you have his admiration and respect. He is a wannabe thinker with a short attention span – which has obvious challenges. He works for the Compass Foundation, commenting on the tensions of faithfully living a gospel-centred life in 21st-century western culture. What he thinks that faithfulness should look like was profoundly shaped by the premature death of his father last year. Sam considers himself lucky to live near the rest of his family in Auckland and extremely lucky that he gets to do that with his wife Julia. He is slowly and painfully learning to cook (which impresses her) and kiteboard (which doesn’t.)